DUST Search - I am bad at math! The Sagaris

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

So earlier saw a tank whiner declaring a HAV having 6k shileds

Way to get subtly personal Iron - I appreciate that a lot mate.

Also, where are you getting three complex damage modifiers from? I run heavy frequently and struggle to fit more than one without having to sacrifice half of the fit...

I have no idea if you're supporting my argument or against it so it honestly doesn't matter - your math just coincides with mine at pretty much every angle you're just assuming that, by some form of convenience and optimism, that three forge gunners are ever going to have an opportunity to use the same exact fit, not get killed by one or more of the five tanks on field or hordes of infantry support, conveniently in a location that the tank cannot max speed (faster than a sprinting scout mind you) out of range and/or still have the perfect co-ordination to operate against said tank with Prototype/Officer fits.

You've got high hopes for them AV guys man, just saying.


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Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.12 02:07:00 - [1] - Quote So earlier saw a tank whiner declaring a HAV having 6k shileds in a buffer setup and I went that dont sound right at all did some check up and found out he/she was way off as the bare bones unfitted sagaris almost had more EHP than he/she stated. So did the math in a reasonable best guessing way we can do it for now. Skills needed Electonics V - 25% more CPU (broken not applied) Engineering V - 25% more Powergrid (broken/not applied) Engineering Upgrdes V - 25% less CPU use per powergrid Module (broken?) Shield Adaption V - 15% less CPU use per Shield Amplifier Shield Managment V - 25% more shields Shield Operations V - 15% more shield recharge rates Shield Upgrades V - 15% less CPU use per shield module (broken?) Mechanics V - 25% more armor (currently bugged) Armor Upgrades -15% less PG per armor module.(broken?) Of course HAV III and the sorts but nobonuses from them. So now that we got our skills stated lets move on. Math over all and how its counted and coverted in Dust 514. One example shields. In eve online the base generator of shields is time. However testing proves this isnt the case, Dust 514 shield recharge base is per second so thats good news for everyone not in tanks. Another next issue that comes to mind since we are aware of is stacking penalty in Eve which is S(n) = 0.5^[((n-1) / 2.22292081) ^2] where N = the number of modules. This has been recently confirmed the same penalty curve for dust 514. Sagaris w/ max support skills 3900 shields 5200 EHP shields when [1/(1-0.25{natural resists on hull}) * 3900{base shields w/o reistance}]) 1000/1250 (bugged) 27.6 shields a second (EHP repaired is 37.75 shields a second) 141.3 second shield recharge time or 188.4 EHP a second 437.5 CPU 2300 PG 5 highs 3 lows So there is our base line Sagaris. Now lets slap some modules on it! MAX Sagaris + DCU+ AMPx2 + LSEx2 + PDU x3(best stuff) 8972 Shields (Management 25% + 7% PDU x3 (shields hp is not penalized) +LSE x2) 25% Hull + 14% DCU +24% AMPx2(penalty is suggested to be bugged) =45% resists (which unfouruntately are hidden stats) EHP 16,312 1000/1250 armor (bugged) 30 shields a second (EHP repaired is 55 shields a second) 220.5 second shield recharge time 177.4 CPU 1103 GRID PDU x3 7% Shield HP, PG, and Shield Gen DCU 14% resists F-S3 Shield Amp 23% resists x2 HAW ES +2185 shields x2 Now then when you shot a Sagaris its not the 8972 shields going down no its the 16,312 number going down in a sense more easily understood when applying resisted damage So taking Gastun's Forge Gun it does about 1000 damage with nerf then Weaponry V bonus reapplied. Then we combine this with 3 heavy weapon complex upgrades, this results in a measly 14% increase total and to not make things so desperate lets add proficency 5 for 10% more damage. So our last damage looks like 1240 damage per 1.5 seconds charge lets add about 0.6 seconds for rethumbing between shots which results in a magazine emptying out in about 16 seconds with +/- 1-2 seconds for human. A Sagaris in this time can recover 825-935 Eshields during the duration almost nullifying one shot. So this results in an end damage of 6505 magazine damage. A Sagaris travels about 20-30 meters a second and can cover the supposive 175 meter range (lets 2x this for full range) of the forge gun in 11 seconds to 17.5 seconds at most ish so this leaves oppertunity for 7 shots if you are lucky. So in a flat land where the sagaris is just traveling by ignoring everything we find out that the best forge gun in the world isnt enough to kill this Sagaris. In order to kill the Sagaris would require 3 forge gunners about with all Gastun's Forge gun and have a margin error to miss with 1 shot only. Now the math upstairs of course is entirely questionable and wrong, but I strayed away from WCS (worst case scenario) numbers and calcuations which mostly uses eve online systems and tries to follow dust 514 math as closely as it allows and done some undercutting here and there such as applying 25% shield bonus from manamgent to base shields only thus any other multipliers where also counted spereately instead of individually. I also dont own a sagaris nor have skills for it so I couldnt shove fix and try it out. Also becuase they decided to hide speed again, bleh. Thre is also a chance the fit is too tight and the main cannon and turrets included may not fit with this build. This build is also just random guessing a decent buffer fit. If I could see all the stats and owned the machine I could then further tweak twoards a more prefect build. Just right now there are too many hidden variables and some stats are not updating or taking proper effect or outright lying about thier bonsues such as armor resistances. However hopefully next build alot of things just get 'fixed' so hopefully we can get a better picture of what is OP and what has gotten to nerfed. Things to note: Bugged modules are getting fixed, tank modules are getting a balance pass Velocity is being added so it can be a skilled trait. Followed by it being effected by electronic warfare. Some (read again Some) of the AV nerfs are being undone. Forge gun range/damage and launcher range are the two likely suspects, I do not expect AV grenades to be un-nerfed in damage HOWEVER I expect them to be working instead of having 50% duds. Weaponry getting nerfed from 25% at lvl 5 to 10% at lvl 5. So... what I learn from this? My Excel-fu is rusty time to kick it back up into shape. My math is probably wrong. Its beta things are broken such as losing shields is highlighted green. CCP needs to seriously add more visible stats and fix things that are not updating. Cant really judge tanks now becuase things ARE broken.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.12 02:44:00 - [2] - Quote Yeah updated the skill listing as being broken the upgrades I been told where questionable for all vehicle modules as well. Also if you're shield based on time works like this 1000 shields 333 seconds = 3 shileds a second. Add a LSE that adds 1000 shields 2000 shields 333 seconds = 6 shields a second. Now toss in 2.5% peak around 30% of shields and lower than 0.5 near 90-100% and 10%-1% and draw an arc averaging that out. to be near 6 shields a second over all precenatges and youll get something similar to eve online shileds. Dust 514 luckily only does 2 shields a second is still 2 shields a second regardless on how much more shileds you add.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.12 03:20:00 - [3] - Quote Well the other way of doing this evicer is taking the 45% resists to damage and applying it to the forge gun damage so in reality you're only doing about... 682 damage instead.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.12 05:25:00 - [4] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: So earlier saw a tank whiner declaring a HAV having 6k shileds Way to get subtly personal Iron - I appreciate that a lot mate. Also, where are you getting three complex damage modifiers from? I run heavy frequently and struggle to fit more than one without having to sacrifice half of the fit... I have no idea if you're supporting my argument or against it so it honestly doesn't matter - your math just coincides with mine at pretty much every angle you're just assuming that, by some form of convenience and optimism, that three forge gunners are ever going to have an opportunity to use the same exact fit, not get killed by one or more of the five tanks on field or hordes of infantry support, conveniently in a location that the tank cannot max speed (faster than a sprinting scout mind you) out of range and/or still have the perfect co-ordination to operate against said tank with Prototype/Officer fits. You've got high hopes for them AV guys man, just saying. First you forget this forum has short term memory disorder, in which you now blatently laid yourself in front of the road to get ran over. Proto heavy drop the smg throw in a cpu upgrade. and by no means am I propping you up. As for the base reistances I have 25% + 14% + 24% + 24% = 45% under the working asumption that the Amps which the devs pointed out as being broken was meant in this manner.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.12 08:01:00 - [5] - Quote Encharrion wrote: I can't say I've seen my tank passively regenerate shields WHILE being shot, you might want to check if that is the case with vehicle shields. I know they regen fast enough to nullify an assault rifles or HMG damage. There might be a threshold that causes the 1.5 second pause.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.12 08:14:00 - [6] - Quote Dewie Cheecham wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Encharrion wrote: I can't say I've seen my tank passively regenerate shields WHILE being shot, you might want to check if that is the case with vehicle shields. I know they regen fast enough to nullify an assault rifles or HMG damage. There might be a threshold that causes the 1.5 second pause. Oh, no, not one of those. You want the bug from the last build back, that meant AR's could kill tanks? I know, I know, this is the future, and the AR's are using plasma, yadda, yadda, yadda. Do you think these tanks are made of any material we know of today? Ill just be mean and tell you go fly a kite. The simple fact is that the AR still does perform its damage against tanks. tanks however regen those shieds nearly instantly,
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.12 13:25:00 - [7] - Quote Tyas Borg wrote: Just realised my math is a bit out with the resistances lol, it's still not 16K or anywhere near whatever build you use. I have been talking with other gungoli and sagaris pilots apprantly my fit isn't 'optimal' they're getting upwards to 17-18k Either way I have to go back and redo the math been told the issue behind shield amps where exactly.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.13 00:32:00 - [8] - Quote Drommy Hood wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Well the other way of doing this evicer is taking the 45% resists to damage and applying it to the forge gun damage so in reality you're only doing about... 682 damage instead. Don't think you're taking into account Damage Controls and the Sagaris' base shield resistance which is increased from the Gunnlogi. That's about spot on for 2x 25% resistance mods and a DC I think though that if iron wolfs maths are right, can't be bothered checking it right now, but 3 AV for one 1.5mil tank seems perfectly reasonable to me...... well 3 officer fitted av, we havent had officer modules for tanks yet.